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i’ve been wanting to do this episode for about three months now
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a common friend of ours aliambayet i ran into her on the corniche
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and i suggested that i reach out to you and her eyes lit up
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and she said you have to talk to shadbir and i was a bit embarrassed to ask for
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your direct number back then and she was about to give me your you know all of your information
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and i thought i should do my homework first because i know that speaking to you is
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not just going to be a casual conversation we’re going to get deep into the subject so
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i got your book i read your i actually read your position papers
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from 2018 and 2019 which i thought was timed perfectly
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right before the protests began and i think november 2019 was the second policy paper
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and i read your world bank uh papers going back in time i learned a lot about
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your history and i have to thank jad hussain for that because he delivered
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four roughly four hours of a very extensive conversation with you
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two episodes that go deep into the 1980s your work and rebuilding downtown during
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the civil war and also your own backstory you know i didn’t know that you’re an engineer and
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a social anthropologist and i also didn’t know that you served ministries twice and telecoms and labor
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i had to go back in time so all of that is my way of saying thank you for spending some time with me
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during election season i know this is very difficult stretch and
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i don’t want to repeat things that have been said over and over and i think zhad ghulsan did a good job at almost
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delivering an encyclopedia knowledge of your career i’d like to ask you if you can maybe the bigger picture questions
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and the questions that are perhaps a bit sensitive and i think you’re the right person to ask
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you served in the state you believe in the state there’s a great quote attributed to you
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not a lesser state but a better state which i enjoy that rational thinking
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you’re old enough to know lebanon before the civil war and at the same time you attract a
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generation that doesn’t remember the civil war which i think is quite remarkable
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most most citizens and estate members i meet are in their early 20s they’re
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passionate they’re enthusiastic and they believe in the cause something else that resonates with me
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this is probably the least sectarian experiment i can think of where you’re in a country that has
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inertia and gravity towards sectarianism you’re pushing back against that
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and i think this group really did a remarkable job let me start with maybe
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a more pressing issue and you can say as much as you’d like it’s almost like a document where you
List formation
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look at the lists that were formed in this year’s election and i see that adrien
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and in the case of i think metten there’s a slightly different name but otherwise the lists tend to be on
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your terms and if you can maybe explain the process of holding on
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to your terms during this process and how you felt the process was conducted moving forward to what seems like
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endless numbers of lists when what should have been probably a more unifying moment for october 17
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well thank you for this meeting this discussion
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ronnie well the question of the elections
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elections broadly speaking are a very
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complex and intense ritual and
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people like rituals they like they like football
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they like basketball where there are rules
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there are emblems there are colors there is passion even for
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teams that are coming from very far away yeah they are a kind of exorcism
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for or against violence so i believe it is responding to a very
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basic need now
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more specifically this ritual can serve different purposes
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in countries where legit msa has
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stabilized on certain rules let’s call them democratic
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although interferences are still there manipulations etc etc
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elections serve mainly to absorb
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shocks or changes that happen within the society or in the environment and
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translate generally in reconfiguring the personnel
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and the discourse elections do not change
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the rules of legitimacy of accepted within a society never
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in other places elections are a kind of
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formal obligation because a government has to make elections and the elections are a pure similar
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where you get 99.99 now it’s becoming more sophisticated
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they they prefer getting 85 you see it’s better so it is just a lip service towards the
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external dominant setup and
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in our case elections are very interesting because
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they are neither this nor that
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you mentioned the civil war before the civil war
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this country knew elections actually elections began in 1864 with the mutasari fear
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to elect an advisory council that had absolutely no power
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but it was very intense because it was an occasion to promote notables not
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abilities yes then with the french coming under the
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so-called mandate etc elections were a
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regular after independence after 43 they were held regularly
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and the parliament included two types of personnel
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a small number of of bourgeoisie of professionals
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mainly at that time lawyers very close to the real
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places of power to trade traders bankers etc to the french to the british etc
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or to various arab movements but these were the minority the vast
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majority majority were notables from rural areas
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who were not very involved actually in the process of decisions
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but who served as custodians of the population to frame
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the population leaving room for the real actors to play
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after 72 lebanon did not do any elections first of all during the war as everybody
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knows no elections then the elections in 92 were obviously organized
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by the by the syrians who had the mandate
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from the american saudi etc to set up so they held elections
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96 elections 2000 elections all these elections were clearly managed
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by the syrians and with uh with the apparent regularity yeah
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now this is important to remember 2005
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was a major break 1559 assassinations
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the expelling of the syrian army all that brought deep trouble it is significant
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that within at the moment where the tensions were at
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their climax between the eight and fourteen so-called eight and fourteen well elections were held
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and practically both parties were in agreement
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why for one major reason all of them were very worried
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to slip again into civil war and they felt because they knew civil war and the
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assassinations were still taking place they felt that it was necessary to buy
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an insurance policy so they held elections
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i hope that listeners would keep that in mind because we are in a situation that is very close to that
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then after that 2008 was the simple reflection of an agreement that was made in doha so again
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it was a it was not an election yeah
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then you have the interruption 2018
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was a very interesting case because the system was already bankrupt yeah
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macron came and promised the 11 billion dollars the sadder conference as they call it
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arrangements were made financial engineering were already done the finance the presidential arrangement as
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they call it was in place people had demonstrated in 2015
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massively so regaining legit msc internally and exercising the fears
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of the bankruptcy led to the 2018 elections what’s happening now
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what’s happening now looks a lot like 2005. meaning the region is being reconfigured
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the local actors are not in any way
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worried about the legitimacy of each there of them within
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his own community and none of them is challenging the representativity of any other within the
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other community right meaning hezbollah does not present candidates in in junior and zsa does not present candidates in
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vintage bill right okay so why holding elections i believe that these elections are being
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held because the regional arrangements are a source of deep worry
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to the communitarian chiefs and they believe that they are able now because people have
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been despaired after the bankruptcy the disillusions of the revolt etc demonstrations
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they have accepted the loss of their revenues of their money etc people have been
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a victory has been in realized by the system power system against the population
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so from this side they feel safe and on the other side that is the external arrangements they are worried so
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they needed elections to gain a formal legit message
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in expecting the external arrangements this is what’s happening
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these are the elections now in lebanon and of course they they would be pleased if in these
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elections some candidates who pretend being
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revolutionaries reforms etc are elected because this would only increase the formal credibility of the
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process you know i’ve tried to do my homework and
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have a very uh objective lens because i i think there’s
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two things that don’t give citizens in the state enough credit one is social media there’s a hysteria sometimes
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attributed to this group and television i don’t particularly like learning about
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lebanese politics on lebanese tv so instead i actually try to understand you
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through your own words and by the way i’m very happy you have this in both english and arabic i can practice my
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arabic when needed actually it’s quite helpful you’ve just laid out i think a very
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descriptive and very easy to understand structural problem that has crippled this country since the
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civil war and i’d like to go a little further on what you’re suggesting is two things
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one that citizens in the state is in a sense a
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properly legitimate alternative to what we’ve seen happen not just since the civil war but any other group that
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is willing to engage with pre-october 17 parties or smaller groups that don’t see eye to
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eye with citizens in a state on the other side which i understood mostly from this book this is a very
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descriptive analysis of the economic collapse and a lot of it is attributed to post
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thought of years really from the early 1990s onwards so if you can let’s go into the
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political story and something that i don’t think was touched a lot on with with shad shadowson i’d like to go in
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that direction a bit the political failures of post taif
Political failures
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and in a sense i think it’s easily described as three steps that are not that were not uh delivered
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on time the first is sectarian reform we never had a senate and if my
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understanding is right this is something that’s long overdue in lebanese history yet it always seems to be at the end of
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the story rather than at the beginning so there’s one example of reforming sectarianism
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the other example the syrian departure took 15 years rather than two or three
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years and you’re right to emphasize that the syrians not just occupied but they dictated
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politics local politics to the point that politics was the way you described it elections is a formality
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rather than actual agency the third thing is the disarmament of all sub-state militia and we have one
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today that is a very big part of the narrative is there any way in trying to explain
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the failures of lebanon with not being able to address those three fundamental steps
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and i’d like to marry this with the economic collapse meaning that lebanon did not function
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the way it should have and the reasons it doesn’t function today are not so much
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the mediocrity or even the extreme corruption or even the plunder this crony
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capitalism that we all know well that it is a structural problem that may still be with us
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and it carried on post syria and it’s with us right now
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i i and i’m starting this because i did look at the book carefully there is a section at the end and i think it’s the
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second policy paper on how to address something like hezbollah but it almost
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leaves me wanting more and i’d like to go down that road okay
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well you’ve put many subjects in your question i’ll try
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i’ll try for myself at least and maybe for the listeners to to organize the answer
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well i would say that the common point
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that i would like to clarify to to organize the answer is the following
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what is what is the meaning of a society and
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power what is the relation between a society and a system of power
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well there are many societies in history in the world
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until now that live without a specific form of organization that
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is called the state state is an instrument
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that pretends
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having something that we should call mixing easy legitimacy within the
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society so that this legitimacy justifies
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the mobilization of resources this instrument is the state is
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justified by the need to perform
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certain functions i do not think that the state is derived from
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race religion or anything like that it is one form of organization
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in our region and in many other regions in the world actually mainly in regions that used to be
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marginal parts of empires societies
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organized themselves without the state i would say even
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organized themselves so that they could live by opposing the idea of having a state
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this is the case in most of our region this is the case
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globally in the balkans and in many other places in southeast asia etc etc
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in many large places areas in china etc empires
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do not act as i did what i defined as states empires rely
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on the dominance many cases the
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military dominance of a small group
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actually in a military superstructure this
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military superstructure does not
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care or has not the need to care about the whole society
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it has to care about mainly two things
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the maintenance of its military power of its military supremacy internally and
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externally and the control of a limited
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number of points that constitute a network to extract wealth
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mines ports trade routes the rest
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is secondary yeah secondary in both meanings first of all because
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these areas that are neither on large trade routes
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nor in rich planes where you have agricultural surplus
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these areas can be populated by populations where the possibility of extracting
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significant tribute is very small and the risk of seeing a military
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competition arising from this area is also very small yeah in our region this applies to most of
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the stepping areas where we have tribes and asha here of the mountainous areas where we have
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communities whether they are i don’t know kurds allow its uh maronites shia jews or
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whatever but so what happens if you if you live in such a place
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you do not see the state it’s not the same as if you were in
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damascus or in istanbul where you have military the military the ottoman
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military garrison directly you do not have it you have the welly who is far away
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who has for economic reasons advantage in delegating yeah the management of these
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marginal areas to whom to whoever can do the job you can call
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it a mere herb whatever but for the population in place
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this guy looks very important looks as important even more important
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than the sultan yeah right yeah in our books of history people
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do not even students pupils do not even know the names of the ottoman sultans
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apart from selim ii and abdel hamid is the last one right yeah we were part of that state for 400
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or 600 years so we know the emir of the shaykh who were well small notables
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that the valley delegated a certain function that is
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essentially collect whatever he could intribute and put in his pocket
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uh the part that he could spare and pay the rest to the welly and it if at any moment one of these
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guys uh played outside the rules well the wally could eject him or even kill him yeah
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okay so this has been in place until 100 years ago in our place
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the idea is that the society is organized
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you can call it communities but this is a historical product you do not believe that it has anything to do with deep
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religious thinking i share that sentiment fully i agree okay so people organize themselves their
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imaginary world on the idea that they have islam yeah and the zaheim is
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very important here is the horizon and the saheem is charged with a very
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heavy burden that is dealing with the rest of the world the power the power is outside the society right the power is
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dangerous yeah so the zaheem is in charge of dealing with the external permanent external threat
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so he has to be he has to be supported so in the elections you go to support
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the za’in so that the same can deal with the threats that come from the external world whether it is the usa
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iran turkey whatever okay and so
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the meaning of politics and the confidence
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the contract between the people and the zaim is a real one both of them abide by it
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the zarim is faithful to the community and the community is faithful to the but in both cases
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there is nothing called the state we had in this region by accident periods where
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a strange object called state was imposed from the exterior well in the late ottoman period
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the modernization tried to impose a state it did not work really so we had 1860 64 massacres et cetera then the
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french came and implemented their there are classical tools okay
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our guys began playing with it and it’s for those who are interesting whether the mandate period
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was very intense in this sense trying to put the state and circumvent et cetera
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absolutely then we had the shahabist period yeah where she had who was a french officer when people forget that
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yeah okay tried to implement what he learned in the in the military academy
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as soon as he finished his mandate all what he did was dismantled so
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in our place you see it’s not a matter of sectarianism it’s a
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matter of ending a long historical period
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where even the attempts to implement a state were
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vanquished okay because simply not because
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we have different mood simply because the functional need for a state is
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terrific in the immediate that’s all because the state the society is bankrupt and the region is being
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reconfigured so when you talk about all the the things that you mentioned
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well the the the senate the hezbollah the corruption etc all that in my view
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fits within display the corruption we do not have corruption of course we have corruption like anywhere
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but what is called corruption is simply the way of functioning of this
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contract you know what i see i appreciate the way you’ve you’ve actually done something which i think is difficult you found a way to marry
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history with present circumstances in a very very digestible way and i see it
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the way you’re describing actually i think it resonates a lot because you’re you’re focusing on things that are far
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more important than supermarket words like sectarianism you’re actually identifying structure
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i’ll ask though i’m not so hard on the early independence years and i’ll say i wasn’t
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alive you were uh you’re the you’re the same generation of my parents
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that lived long enough to see lebanon collapse in 1975. uh before we started recording
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we’re just briefly talking about how would how you would get from beirut to tripoli during the war by plane
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i would have to go to syria all the way up to tripoli to avoid checkpoints and khattems
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i can imagine something and you tell me if you see it the same way that the building blocks necessary to
Building blocks
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get to an actual state were wobbly but they were available pre-1970.
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absolutely okay let’s let’s go down this road a bit i think 1970 is the year
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that we should go back to rather than throw away i recently spoke to nadeem ishmael who’s
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40 he wasn’t around but he’s part of that whole legacy
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meaning you have a party pre-independence
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that becomes a militia in the 1970s every single political party in this
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country with the exception of a handful pre-october 17 have blood on their hands this is civil
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war tragedy but none of them were militia before 1970
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and i don’t think lebanese naturally drove this country to hell
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i think something that is beyond local control like external arms in 1970 it was fatah
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it wasn’t always fatah that transformed into something that killed
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politics in the 1990s which was syrian hegemony and i think and we can go as deep as
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you’d like into this i think that same problem is with us today and it’s best represented as hezbollah’s
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dominion not hezbollah’s politics not even hezbollah’s local aspirations
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the inability to reform something that’s larger than lebanon and it’s sub-state
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violence would you agree at least in the foundation that 1970
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is the end and we should not be so dismissive of
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post-independence years up until then that we could have probably
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gone on the long journey of reform had this kind of machine not been part
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of the story okay again your questions is so rich i’ll try not
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to be very long i take liberty knowing that i can ask you these questions because i can’t please please
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okay you mentioned 1970 yes 1970
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is a landmark 1970 6970 actually well
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the cairo agreement and the elements of the civil war were built
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up yes and one important thing then is that
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what remained of the chehabists went to see for jihad asking him
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to run for or to be candidate there is no formal candidate but okay for the
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presidency of the republic and he wrote a document that is one page
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it is called meaning the the refusal of
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of going again on the scene and he mentioned things that well to be
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summarizing very briefly after the experience that i had
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i now believe that the forms of
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whether the formal or the informal rules of political life
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the dominance of monopolies
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and the manipulation of sectarianism will
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end the country and i do not want he does not say it in these
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worlds but do not want to go out of democratic processes
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so i fear that this country is finished and he didn’t have children there was no
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evil absolute consideration absolutely so we are now i hope it will not go this
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way we are now at the edge of changes that could slip
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into violence okay maybe the main reason for which violence
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has not exploded is that it happened that the communitarian chiefs have
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themselves experienced violence so when you have experienced war and civil war more precisely
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you do not run easily again yeah into fire it’s not
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to magnify their credit but this is an important factor yeah if you compare it
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to what happened in the 70s or the way things evolved in syria one cannot but recognize that the
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possibilities of slipping into violence over the past i don’t know 15 years
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were much higher much riskier than they were in the 70s okay so
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this being said another point that you mentioned well
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the 70s the late 60s early 70s well
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i would say two things here i hope that they might be of interest not only for
32:53
history but also for the lessons they could bring history does not repeat itself but one
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has to learn lessons i’ve heard the saying that it echoes but it doesn’t repeat absolutely yeah okay well what happened
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in the 60s is that due to the
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state building project of one person who is for a chap
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structural actions were put in place the
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large part of our legal system was issued at that time by legislative decrees yeah okay not
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voted in the parliament right although the dossier bureau at that time had
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secured a nice majority for the shaykh nevertheless foreign and his governments
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were not able to have a low vote in the parliament the social security the
33:49
public service etc all that okay it was issued by special powers by legislative
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uh decrees remember that this is also our proposal to manage the present situation okay now
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these actions well the generalization of electricity the opening of public schools
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all that was done at that time well what was the result the result was
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paradoxically an acceleration of rural migration
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the idea was exactly the opposite it was to develop the marginal regions and lebanon to
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avoid what happened in 1958 yeah actually what happened was exactly the
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opposite as in many places the acceleration of rural migration yeah well rural migration
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brought a change which is that the traditional notabilities in the
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regions who were who had mustaches tar bush and cheruel and etc etc were nice guys
34:56
controlling the the people there
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were no longer able to control and the new youth
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who went to the lebanese university still having in hand
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the
35:20
links with their villagers were eager to share power
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and the local bourgeoisie at that time mainly in beirut was so myopic
35:33
so happy with having the suez canal closed having boats waiting for months to enter
35:39
the port of beirut they did not give the minimal attention
35:45
to that this has built the basis of a
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dramatic change in the system of power by destroying
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the alliance between the urban bourgeoisie and the rural notabilities
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and opening the field for the fight among these newcomers
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new bourgeoisie who tried each of them to find the arguments where he could
36:15
some become arabist other become pure lebanese other leftist with harafat against arafat these were
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only taken from the shelf the mechanism was that this led the ground for the civil war on
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top of that you mentioned the tape well both the qatari and the socialist party
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yani uh pierre smigiel and kamel jon were two pillars of the shahabas system
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when they saw this social change happening
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and when they saw as you mentioned the change in the region yani the defeat of 67. yeah
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the the last dramatic years of jabal abdul nasir
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the autonomization of fatah yes as opposed to up the nozzle
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okay plo you know that okay they went as zymes
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playing the same old game that is there is a change of valley the
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exterior is changing let’s position ourselves both of them who were the pillars
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of the sheriff’s system yeah the qatari first and then commercial blood right
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went in a process that is commanded by the logic of zymes as i
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mentioned earlier but that led to the dismantlement
37:45
of what was under cons estate under construction point is describing it state under
37:51
construction yeah the point is that the drama in that is that okay
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themselves or their sons were killed it has huge prices on that but there is
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a disproportionality between the
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expectations or the ambitions of the zaheem’s and the results these calculations were
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small you know at that time having arafat in the arkham was considered as a secondary process you see
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rashid karami was a an essential part of the shaiba system
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okay but the calculations of emil bostani you know small tricks yeah
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and even the presence and what’s called fat land
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was considered as being very secondary what we care of was you know the center of lebanon they
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wrote wrote to damascus who cared about that so what i want to say is that
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small errors in calculations can bring to disasters there is no proportionality
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and this is very important for what we are living today i think that’s well said and i think
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it’s important to it’s not something that comes naturally to memory that these are all people that were in the
39:12
future government at the core and i think that’s an important uh
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it shows what they are like during the years and it shows what they
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can turn into in under different circumstances so i appreciate the ability to show just if
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you allow me what i want to say is that these persons
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their behavior was commanded by the same scheme that is
39:39
the contract between one zaheem one chief and the community
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see what we call sectarianism is not a matter of senator or whatever
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it’s a matter of having a state that is not independent uh in need
40:00
to gain legitimacy from zymes you see right and i it’s a different story no no
40:06
but actually that’s that’s important to emphasize i i will try to unpack this
40:11
knowing that you have both uh history you’ve lived these years you’ve also
40:17
meticulously studied a lot that i simply will never i mean you’ve done your
40:23
you’ve done your career is embedded in in this whole noble goal of reform and
40:28
rebuilding and not just reconstructing properly creating a functioning state so
40:34
i say from my side with limited knowledge
40:40
i can’t imagine camel jumblat or pierre jemele
40:45
committing atrocities without a group like fatah as part of the story so in other words
40:52
the system tolerated these zaim which you described but the
40:58
system also did not allow for anarchy in that sense there was
41:04
something under construction which i appreciate the way you described it i
41:10
i appreciate two things that these people their legitimacy comes from places that
41:17
we should not turn to meaning this old-fashioned zaim population bond this
41:22
contract is outdated and it’s long past its prime but i would say
41:29
that something that prevents a population’s eagerness to reform
41:35
and willingness to in a way evolve its own social contract within lebanon
41:40
that is still with us today the obstacle is there so i’ll give an analogy
41:46
we’ve lost 52 years since 1970. two days ago was the
41:52
anniversary the 47th anniversary of the civil war that’s at least two generations that
41:57
have grown up with violence as part of politics
42:03
and that’s why i tried to bring in hezbollah to the uh conversation yeah they’re coming that that
42:10
i can’t see us moving that far down the road as long
42:16
as what tore this country apart even in its bad shape even if even in its
42:22
very awkward power sharing mechanism the problem persists and i’ll go i’ll
The problem persists
42:28
revise one point only i agree with you that there’s a reluctance to go down the road of civil
42:35
war again for the reasons you described that there is living memory of what that can do
42:41
but i would also bet that hezbollah would not survive that kind of situation
42:46
and i also think that hezbollah’s capabilities deny other groups from posing any serious threat regardless
42:54
so i think the civil war threat is not going to happen what is happening though is paralysis
43:01
and what is happening is that the good efforts of protesters trying to achieve power are being denied
43:08
and october 17 to me is that last breath of trying to reform
43:14
as long as violence is part of the story and i don’t think that they can be married together properly
43:20
and that’s this is where i think all the sensitive conversations happen where everyone falls into division
43:27
again new questions are very complex
43:33
or at least this is how i see them because you are
43:38
addressing the point from many perspectives i’ll try again to organize as far as i
43:44
can well but you let me know if i’m not asking something clearly because i really don’t know it’s it’s not a matter of clarity
43:50
it’s a matter of complexity i’m trying okay no well i’m a layer first of all no
43:55
no no so first of all well you mentioned that this situation is
44:01
outdated et cetera well
44:09
maybe repeating myself but the various forms of organization
44:16
in society cannot be placed in a simple uni-dimensional order saying
44:25
that this is more efficient in absolute terms this is more moral this is more modern this is
44:32
whatever it’s not true the same as electoral laws it’s not you do not have one fair electoral law yeah the british
44:39
electoral law is not fair at all so what are we talking about okay so yeah it’s the oldest one yeah right
44:44
right now the political configuration of a society
44:51
is a historical product it comes in a certain
44:57
moment generally crisis and it lasts until another change another crisis happens
45:03
we are in such a situation now it is not that the one that existed was
45:09
not efficient actually it was efficient in some way what way
45:15
well what we call the
45:21
the communitarian non-state has been very efficient
45:26
it has succeeded something that was not easy to achieve
45:33
many things first of all getting in the same time massive financial and military
45:40
assistance from the us and europe and iran at the same time this is incredible
45:46
it has succeeded in managing
45:52
after bankruptcy a system financial system
45:58
and a redistributive system that irrigated of course not in an equal
46:03
manner but the all the population
46:08
by organizing accepted massive immigration
46:14
and extremely sophisticated manipulation of perceptions that kept people believing
46:21
that the lebanese banks were in good shape for 20 years ronnie
46:26
this is an incredible achievement they have also succeeded
46:32
after 2018 let’s say since 2019
46:38
to circumvent the protests by making people admit
46:46
a the liquidation of their society meaning
46:52
okay we have lost our money you do not have real aggressivity against the banks in
46:58
lebanon not really losing their income their jobs
47:04
leaving their losing their institutions whether commercial educational
47:09
medical all that is accepted and people are participating to this ritual of
47:14
elections this has been done because a very very accurate mix
47:21
of threat of violence so fearing the worst you know people have continued talking in lebanon
47:27
when will the final collapse happen actually it had happened two years before we are talking about capital
47:33
control there is nothing really left so so this has been success for this system in managing
47:40
a mix of threat of violence measured threat of violence
47:45
and a persistent management of illusions we will find oil and gas
47:53
okay we will reconstruct syria we will get money from the imf as if
47:58
time for santa claus you know okay so this has worked the cost is maybe 20
48:05
billion dollars lost but on top of that is a deep despair
48:10
this is a very tricky place so it is an efficient system just to make it short
48:16
this is not something that is and this is very close because you know these communities what are these communities
48:22
these communities are lineages okay languages are family ties that is
48:27
the basic system of ties among humans this is an extremely efficient network
48:35
to find jobs to emigrate to penetrate organizations you know uh what is mafia in southern
48:42
italy it’s the same mafia is very efficient you know yes
48:47
may i interrupt here please uh you know you have a very uh very unique way of using words that i
48:54
really enjoy so efficiency you’re absolutely right it is efficient in a sense that it it it allows us to suffer
49:03
immensely and survive it allows to
49:08
really put us through extreme economic financial stress
49:14
and live in what should be a fairly uh normal environment it drove us all to
49:19
hell it ensures that a group like hezbollah is preserved
Hezbollah is preserved
49:25
that’s so so let’s say efficiency is both in the sense that it survives
49:30
it leaves the the political violence element roughly intact
49:36
and it drives everything else insane you know you mentioned doha earlier 2008
49:42
that did not just happen casually that’s a byproduct of
49:48
three weeks of fighting on the streets of beirut 2005 which is the syrian exit and
49:55
everything that went wrong after that national unity that was the way you described it i agree this is the worst
50:00
type of governance possible you get everyone that hates each other to just sit down and do nothing
50:06
a year later lebanon pays an immense price for being involved in a war that lebanon should not have been involved in
50:14
2008 as political paralysis it’s ta if gone wrong and then after that i mean i i’m sorry
50:21
to beat this over and over hezbollah’s role in lebanon has really
50:28
crippled our politics to the point that it can actually eliminate the aspirations
50:33
of protesters this is not a protest movement that just picks up and goes home
50:39
now i know that this is the sensitive subject i know no it’s not it’s not i’ll answer you no don’t do it it’s not
50:44
sensitive at all so in that sense it’s a major part no not foreign in these in the um circles of media i think everyone
50:51
goes a bit insane on this subject but i wanted to okay yeah okay let’s go back
50:59
to answer precisely the hezbollah point well in the late 2019
51:07
we had a government of national unity as usual okay
51:15
who was a calamity ignoring even the basic fact that state was already bankrupt at the banks
51:22
in spite of all the warnings that we send all the papers okay now
51:28
what happened is that these guys were surprised it is surprising that they were
51:34
surprised but they were surprised by the uprising as if the uprisings and even in their
51:41
legal drafts they say that the capital control should begin at the 17th of october as if the 70s of
51:48
october was an administrative decision right right while actually all over 2019
51:56
visible indices that the the financial system was collapsed were given persistently
52:03
stopping credit problems in provisioning of basic goods
52:10
etc etc up to the [Music] what’s up you’re also a pioneer because
52:16
in 2016 is when citizens in the state is formed and also you address these issues
52:21
and i marked it here october 2018. so you’re talking about financial economic and political challenges and how to
52:27
address them so you’re ahead of time in a sense this is the role that we can hope to
52:32
play now what happened is that they were surprised by the protests yeah
52:38
okay they asked for 72 hours with sat hariri to draft a reform yeah
52:45
of course it was okay it looks like a joke it looked like a joke yeah
52:51
and immediately that government that national unity broke in two parts
52:59
one part pretending they were revolutionaries and other part pretending they were
53:06
aggressed yeah okay okay so just here both of them were reacting
53:14
on the basis of design scheme meaning the threat is exterior
53:19
whether you believe that well it is a kind of
53:25
us-backed revolution so if you bet on this exterior you become a supporter of
53:31
the revolution if you believe the same you consider you are the target of the aggression and you
53:37
defend it the first typical case is that of the lebanese forces the
53:42
second that of hezbollah immediately it took it took 24 hours or maybe 48 hours
53:50
none of them went thinking what did happen what were the errors what is still kept
53:57
to put the grasp on the transition period and make it manageable none of them both
54:03
of them went one saying it is done by the exterior so
54:08
i will uh jump on the wave and the others exactly with the same diagnosis
54:15
it is done from the outside so i have to defend myself okay you send your guys
54:20
with the motorcycles you know the story okay it’s an important point i i believe okay
54:26
so and we know both are not true we know that it’s not a matter of truth they they really believe that right
54:33
yeah but i meant i meant um sorry i do not believe that of course the reasons were obvious they have been
54:39
building up for 10 years all that but how how do these actors
54:46
see things how how do they behave and as long as they have the support of their
54:51
community how large parts of our society behave so you see what your point okay but that’s
54:57
the central thesis of the book i think and well you just i’m getting obsessed sorry i began with that just to
55:05
take one of the elements you mentioned to
55:12
highlight the homogeneity you see of the behaviors yeah okay this is how this society as
55:19
long it is as it is organized as a non-state association of communities behaves this
55:27
is how it works this is a good example okay now
55:32
hezbollah hezbollah is a military organization
55:39
that was put in place after the 82 invasion
55:44
with the harvest assad acceptance because he was
55:50
feeling threatened by what was happening within syria and in iran between iran and iraq
55:57
yes okay these are facts well this military organization
56:03
in its uh field of action has shown remarkable
56:09
efficiency again about efficiency with external support iran of course
56:15
okay but this is true now what happened is that two things
56:20
that very specific organization and experiment
56:27
slipped almost and without even
56:32
automatically within the rule that governs the society meaning
56:39
becoming a duality of the community
56:44
okay being israel and a community
56:50
commence it commands everything commands
56:55
the political action it commands the alliances it commands the elections it commands but it commands also something
57:02
that is very strange that is a complete inability to exert
57:09
public responsibilities hezbollah has not a single idea about
57:15
what to do let’s suppose hezbollah had full power what would hezbollah do with the
57:21
currency with the banks etc i’m deeply believing that they do not have you have
57:26
maybe individuals without within hezbollah exactly but hezbollah organization has no idea about that i
57:32
agree so what i wanted to say is that the hezbollah
57:37
phenomenon it’s an important phenomenon is not different in nature
57:43
from the rule that governs a society organized on the basis of a non-state
57:51
in this sense hezbollah can be okay it’s not exactly the same
57:59
in in homologous situation to other situations that were experienced where
58:06
you know you know a community is a group of associated lineages
58:12
from rural origins this is a community okay a community as long as it lives in its
58:20
rural areas is to a large extent isolated from major
58:25
routes it constitutes itself as a community at
58:30
the moment when it moves from being in a marginal region to
58:37
a central place call it a city at it is only at that time well this happened
58:43
with the maronites in the mid of the 19th century okay let’s jump it happened
58:49
with the shia in the second third of the 20th century that’s all okay how does it translate it
58:56
translates into a uh
59:04
a thriving action both politically symbolically institutionally
59:11
military all that okay how does it translate it does not
59:17
translate in a state in no way right because it is functionally up in opposition to a state
59:24
it translates it it might it can go into wars absolutely right into violence all that
59:30
yeah is a real threat but this logic i’m not plagiating
59:37
but this logic okay ends to this community
59:42
being disintegrated as a social human group and its institutions being
59:50
absorbed into this you see if you take if you take well the people
59:57
who consider themselves as shia supporting hezbollah well
1:00:02
of course they are exposed to what’s happening in the country but their children their children are as well as
1:00:08
others expecting to emigrate you see it’s the same you see
1:00:14
the sun so the prevailing logic that has proven
1:00:22
some form of efficiency okay is something that no longer can serve
1:00:31
the needs of the real society of the people you see this is the point hezbollah is the extreme illustration of
1:00:38
that you know it’s a matter of graduation hezbollah is the extreme illustration of that at its climax the
1:00:45
others they are they have been maybe at some moment in
1:00:50
time in a similar situation now they are less at their climax but all that does
1:00:59
not get out of the same frame
1:01:04
all that frame being now unable to address the real needs neither
1:01:11
hezbollah nor the lebanese forces nor any other rest have any possibility of imagining
1:01:18
managing a state managing the society you see in the elections yeah they don’t even present their slogans they are
1:01:24
talking about confidence faith and loyalty yeah yeah so the link between
1:01:30
the basic contract strength and loyalty you see the basic contract between design and the
1:01:36
community so none of them has any ideas no no no no sorry no no it’s actually it’s very rich uh this is so yeah but
1:01:42
this is a rich rich area for exploration and i i promise you this will not be the rest of the conversation will i want to
1:01:48
touch on other things that are meaningful to citizens in a state in particular what’s happening now but but
1:01:54
allow me to go a step further this these social explanations or the
1:02:00
social phenomenon or even the um the societal lexicon
1:02:07
which pervades across lebanese society whether you’re in the south in the north
1:02:12
in the mountain whether you’re a lebanese forces supporter or hezbollah supporter or anything in the middle east
1:02:17
everything in the middle east what a crowd so that that whole uh the plate of all
1:02:23
that it means to be lebanese i think that’s that’s entirely accurate what you’re describing is how we live in
1:02:30
this country i will take one issue though the reason why
1:02:36
the lebanese forces for example is not
1:02:41
nearly as problematic in terms of reform and i don’t mean reform in the
1:02:47
absolute sense i mean the foundational sense is because they’re not a militia
1:02:52
anymore that’s the story that ends in the 1980s in 1989 1990. so when we talk
1:02:58
about this group today it’s collateral damage to the system you can almost measure it right
1:03:05
i’m trying to i don’t know careful here uh even haruket amir their footprint in terms of how they can
1:03:12
actually subvert we know what it is and it’s contained uh every other group
1:03:19
and all those other groups that were that have blood on their hands during the war
1:03:24
you can actually imagine a situation where they’d be forced to take some consideration
1:03:31
hezbollah has one unique value that all the other groups had during the civil war and they
1:03:38
have it now i don’t think they have it because of our societal flaws or whatever they are
1:03:44
our uh our society the way it functions i think this is an imposed disorder
1:03:51
i tell you okay you’re taking the example of the lebanese forces okay let’s take back the lebanese forces but
1:03:58
the lebanese forces in the 80s when the israelis invaded
1:04:06
most of lebanon and came to beirut okay well the lebanese forces were
1:04:12
in coordination with the israelis what is called the war of the mountain
1:04:18
how did it happen the israelis left without organizing their retreat with
1:04:24
the lebanese forces they had also contacts with some intermediaries
1:04:32
from the druze side they retreated the lebanese forces were completely
1:04:40
smashed yeah and zharjah fled to their lamar where he stayed several months so
1:04:47
what led to this defeat the fact that the external supposed ally
1:04:55
left them aside okay so again the fear from the exterior okay
1:05:00
yeah one other event in the beginning of the nineties well jaja was a major
1:05:06
supporter of the tariff arrangement et cetera okay okay that’s saying that
1:05:12
did not has blood on his hands of course well but nevertheless at that time
1:05:20
if the americans warring christopher was coming weekly to damascus yeah had asked to let samir jaja aside
1:05:29
he was abandoned again by the americans so again to get back to hezbollah
1:05:35
but he was abandoned abandoned as a disarmed head of a disarmed militia okay in the 80s he was armed you know yes you
1:05:41
know you know the pressures the pressures that the lebanese forces exerted on opponents
1:05:48
living in eastern what’s called eastern regions during the 80s
1:05:55
was terrible it was now hezbollah is exerting pressure on people on the south
1:06:01
mainly during the elections but the lebanese forces did the same and more you see so they were strength they
1:06:08
were straying strong at that time yes and they lost threats because
1:06:14
their external uh
1:06:20
yeah okay abandon them so and and what i want to say is that the same
1:06:25
story is able to be repeated but what we say reform couldn’t have been possible in the 1980s that’s true absolutely
1:06:32
reform in the 1980s you would be impossible to imagine you were trying your best in the 1980s to do something
1:06:38
very big help reconstruct downtown but it stops
1:06:44
i want to respond again before getting to that well you know
1:06:51
you mentioned also nabi barry and aman okay well what made
1:06:58
samir jaja at a moment in time become the chief leader among the
1:07:03
maronites and then michelle own and what led
1:07:10
among the shia because in this logic this is how it works hassan nasrallah become the chief leader
1:07:16
removing nabi berito a secondary position and protecting him as it is obvious now in the elections and
1:07:22
okay these are changes that happen
1:07:29
through what is perceived as being violent and successful clashes this is
1:07:35
how it means and let’s take one example now the
1:07:41
was a significant proportion a majority of
1:07:46
our citizens who believe they are shia because in my view this is a different story of course
1:07:52
feel in the same time have a feeling of pride
1:07:57
because of the achievements of hezbollah and in the same time they have a feeling of being threatened
1:08:05
because of that pride so when hezbollah comes and say what is happening when you
1:08:11
have people from i don’t know uh let’s take fairy side for instance or uh
1:08:20
saying that it is
1:08:28
occupation or something like that well what is the reaction of hezbollah
1:08:34
the whole world is threatening us and plotting against so actually on both sides
1:08:40
each of these actors gains support because both of them only deal with their
1:08:46
community but so you see it’s fair side and wherever he is up in the mountains
1:08:54
their leverage to to to paralyze our political life is minuscule compared to
1:09:00
what hezbollah can do now that that’s my point is that the reform in 1980s would
1:09:05
have been impossible with something like samir jaja’s lebanese forces and the population under that kind of
1:09:12
political nightmare if you want to call it politics would have been impossible now we’re in a climate where it’s
1:09:18
assumed that something like hezbollah is tolerable and you can do reform alongside it this
1:09:25
is where i get into i get i get confused that we have a problem that is as big today if not bigger but the appeal for
1:09:33
reform seems to push that aside and say it’s just something we cannot really
1:09:38
it’s something that is existential but we can’t touch it no no not at all i would not use the word reform okay
1:09:45
because it is polycemic and can be very ambiguous and used for many purposes
1:09:50
what i was trying to tell you is that neither hezbollah nor
1:09:55
ferris and in imasum or fairy side are in competition
1:10:01
within the same society you know they are not in competition
1:10:07
fairies uh does not is not presenting if you were talking about elections again in vintage bail
1:10:14
and uh hezbollah is not presenting candidates in question
1:10:20
so that’s that’s fair yes okay that’s important yeah okay what we are doing is
1:10:25
acting on the whole scene by ignoring voluntarily this
1:10:31
silo compartments you see this is the point now when you talk about the last point you mentioned the ani
1:10:40
the relative weight okay and reforms
1:10:47
our position is not a matter of reform it a matter of rupture what we are saying is that
1:10:53
this situation that the whole society or most of this
1:10:59
society of our society is still recognizes as being
1:11:04
the state of the world this is how people behave now okay even the so-called opposition
1:11:11
they organize groups who present candidates in one circumscription okay they cannot imagine
1:11:18
being on the same discourse on the same position from the extreme sounds to the extremists they do not even imagine so
1:11:25
when i say that this configuration of the society has failed
1:11:30
and there is an urgent need it’s not a fancy an urgent need for something that
1:11:35
this society did not accept that is a state that is confident in its legitimacy
1:11:42
you see so it is not a matter of reform it’s a matter of rupture yeah you would say how translating a need into effect
1:11:50
okay because if people are
1:11:56
losing their referential this is how they see the world and it doesn’t work anymore what do they do
1:12:03
actually they do two things they escape but they take with them their imaginary
1:12:10
yeah imagination okay or they retract like turtles you know
1:12:16
that’s true yes really yeah in what they call i don’t know groups whatever okay or communities
1:12:23
because communities are also defensive structures okay with a shell and with
1:12:28
with the shells and we are different from them and they formally we greet them
1:12:33
on official religious my shell is bigger than yourself yes okay okay so but
1:12:39
so this is the situation the problem is that all
1:12:44
that has collapsed what has collapsed is not a banking system what has collapsed
1:12:50
is not a group who was ignorant of you know of
1:12:57
of laws managing the budgets it’s it’s far beyond that it is a whole
1:13:03
socio-political system that emerged during the 70s when we had in the same
1:13:10
time a civil war and due to the oil boom a massive inflow of
1:13:17
dollars yes okay we gained this society this society has
1:13:22
its rules forget the constitution nobody cares about the constitution there is not even one item in the constitution
1:13:29
that is applied reality acts so this is finished
1:13:35
the question is now when it is finished meaning the society
1:13:40
is under transition is there a possibility of making this transition
1:13:47
managed or will it be left going along the road as it goes this is
1:13:54
the central point this is why we are addressing our
1:14:00
position to everybody but also to the leaders why because they are
1:14:06
the communitarian leaders the rhymes because these are the guys who have been
1:14:12
entitled within the confession communitarian system with
1:14:17
the support by delegation yes you see so telling them listen guys
1:14:23
you know very well that okay some people might like you or dislike
1:14:29
you this is not the point you are functionally unable to manage
1:14:34
this transition you know i see i okay so i will from from nasrallah to jaja and all the
1:14:42
others between you see i i will fast forward to the last two and a half years because that’s something i think we have
1:14:47
to we’ll we’ll go into and i i will only ask your opinion on on one thing
1:14:53
um and by the way i appreciate this you know i don’t have this opportunity to actually engage somebody in your
1:15:00
position who’s doing two things at once really patiently trying to explain to somebody
1:15:07
half your age if not less where everything went wrong and also
1:15:12
offering a vision to the future i think this is a very difficult journey so i i appreciate your
1:15:18
you’re sincere and you’re honest in your convictions i don’t think that’s uh oftentimes it’s hard to find this in
1:15:24
lebanon i don’t think tatif was ever properly implemented and that’s the point
Taef
1:15:30
so in other words in other words i know you’ve already said it rupture i know you’ve already said that the collapse
1:15:36
happened we have to start over i know this i know this but i think lebanese should be
1:15:41
not afraid of a civil state they should not be afraid of secularism obviously if it
1:15:48
suits them better they should go that journey but before going down that road i think we should at least address
1:15:56
everything that went wrong in your lifetime and mine and listen yeah
1:16:01
i guess call you shut up you’re my friend i shouldn’t do that do it please join us pleasure i don’t know please
1:16:07
honorary guest you are obviously aware and you’ve talked about
1:16:14
it already and your book points at it that lebanon has a problem and hezbollah
1:16:20
is not a problem per se it’s the capabilities of hezbollah that are problematic
1:16:28
why is it any different this time around where you have a situation and you described it october 17 2019
1:16:35
the president of this country has a security arrangement with hezbollah the prime minister of this country is
1:16:42
hezbollah’s preferred prime minister yes yes and the speaker of parliament you mentioned earlier it’s almost like a
1:16:49
protective alternative that looks worse than hezbollah that’s the disorder that a group like
1:16:55
this can create why is it different now i don’t i don’t know why two and a half years later this
1:17:00
group would be more flexible or more lenient okay
1:17:06
well okay the if civil state why now okay this is the three points
1:17:13
that i i mean i don’t think we should be so
1:17:19
hard on thought if because we never even really appreciated what it could have turned into
1:17:24
and the civil state okay that’s the destination of course right that’s what everyone is not of course it is an
1:17:30
option i mean sorry that’s even until if it points in that direction it’s it’s an illusion maybe but what i mean is
1:17:37
how can you leave this big chunk of the polit politics okay to
1:17:43
bet on the behaving better okay life is an arrangement
1:17:49
that was put in place because the soviet union was collapsing
1:17:55
and the americans wanted to reorganize the region considering that this
1:18:02
civil war in lebanon had lasted too long and it has to be finished this is the whole story because otherwise
1:18:10
well these uh remaining pure deputies would have agreed on any text 10 years
1:18:15
before so it’s not at all linked to any okay so they took them there but you probably know
1:18:21
the story father what is tai ta’if is
1:18:27
many things first of all it is an attempt
1:18:34
to organize the end of the civil war almost on syria and iran’s terms which
1:18:40
existed right of course of course syria was part of the arrangement the syrian army sent i don’t know maybe
1:18:47
100 guys with the americans against the iraqis in iran in
1:18:53
kuwait yes of course but i mean like of course lebanese forces is disarmed hezbollah’s
1:18:58
not that’s that’s the whole thing we’ll get back to that we’ll get back yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah okay so if was
1:19:04
essentially an external organization settlement organized by the americans with a
1:19:11
significant major role to the syrians and the saudis and everybody leading to
1:19:16
the so-called peace process this was life mainly now within the text
1:19:23
within the text you had several things some meaningful other meaningless
1:19:31
okay this was said yes you have something called the spiritual
1:19:37
families what’s that okay this was simply one of the guys who had
1:19:44
presented that in the document five years ago and wanted to be inserted okay put whatever you want nobody cares you
1:19:50
see yeah you have silly things okay okay you have things that do not work
1:19:56
okay you have mentions that are in order to disculpate
1:20:02
the old deputies who wanted again to overcome
1:20:07
sex political communication and they put the so-called senate joke but why is
1:20:13
that a joke why if it’s never been tested well it has been tested the senate has
1:20:19
never been yes it has been tested it lasted two years when the french were here in 2016. now it’s interesting okay
1:20:26
okay okay we had the general the high commissioner who had full power
1:20:31
the first time the the constitution was put in place and the president charlotte the best at that
1:20:38
time the government first timer sending the project for budget
1:20:44
to the parliament yeah okay the parliament began discussing discussing you know
1:20:49
with the notables you know with the tarbush and the mustache etc not finishing so
1:20:55
the budget was issued by decrees and it was sent to the senate the senate blocked the
1:21:01
so the high commissioner became crazy and changed the constitution suppressing the
1:21:07
senate okay okay you’re right sorry i didn’t mean you’re absolutely right but i meant so in our lifetime we have not
1:21:13
lived in a country with the senate that’s really i mean okay yeah we do not have even a parliament these are pure
1:21:19
formal things we have five six or seven big chiefs
1:21:25
who send delegates to become deputies to become ministers etc this is you know
1:21:32
when i was in the council of ministers trying to disrupt the system
1:21:38
i succeeded in several times in driving the debates on things that were not in
1:21:44
the agenda you know what happened at that time successively because they were not the guys
1:21:51
the other ministers are instructed before getting to the cancer of ministers what to say on every
1:21:58
point by a central team and they just read
1:22:03
take the debate out of the track for which each of the ministers had the paper and he just had
1:22:11
to read his comments yeah rewritten okay what happened you know
1:22:16
maybe 10 or 15 ministers felt in a hurry to go to the uh to the uh
1:22:25
okay to be able to ask their chief what should i say yeah you know so just to make the story simple no no i do not
1:22:32
have we do not have a parliament we do not have a council of ministers we have
1:22:37
a cooperative of five six seven chiefs
1:22:44
but in the past organized so so what is said in taif agreement okay in taif agreement they say you know
1:22:52
when you have commitments in a constitution okay just begin saying that lebanon is a definitive
1:23:01
what on the country what does it mean and germany is a
1:23:06
temporary one what does it mean these are only slogans you know yeah you’re
1:23:11
right but you’re absolutely right but the reason you know what what prevents me from
1:23:17
going all the way and what you’re saying is that even in your own situation
1:23:24
you’re able to live in a country that’s outside of syria’s orbit post 2005 and even then
1:23:32
when the syrians left yep i wish part of the problems that began in 1970
1:23:40
left in 2005 because there’s absolutely no reason there’s no
1:23:46
justified reason to have this kind of problem in our country until today
1:23:53
i appreciate that this book is focusing on the on two things on the economy
1:24:00
on on society and as well as offering a way out of this misery i would love and this is a personal
1:24:07
personal uh personal desire i would love to see citizens in a state
1:24:13
take the road of diplomacy as well and address how to resolve political violence okay and i wish that
1:24:21
that was part or maybe even a second second section to the story that
1:24:26
it’s just no longer tolerable to have something like militia in this country absolutely
1:24:33
[Music] you know i uh in our generation nobody
1:24:39
escaped from having at the same time people very close being killed or
1:24:46
assassinated but also having people who were you know in the class or
1:24:54
friends or neighbors becoming assassins you know killers
1:24:59
because it’s not true that this was the other’s war in lebanon it’s not true now i would if you allow me just try to
1:25:06
continue on tife you know taif is a kind of landmark
1:25:12
that can be understood if you put it in the perspective of the situation when it happened
1:25:17
now the reference of legitimation is important because when people are lost
1:25:23
they need legitimacy in our constitution there are two articles that are the most important
1:25:30
one is that freedom of conscience is absolute okay and the other is that lebanese are
1:25:37
equal in regard of the law okay what does it mean in our sense
1:25:44
all what is mentioned in the articles 95 22 24 etc concerning
1:25:50
the community etc only apply because the freedom of
1:25:55
conscience is absolute to those who choose not to be direct citizens but to be part of
1:26:01
communities any action any law any any
1:26:09
that classifies people as being members of communities
1:26:14
is contrary to the constitution what we say civil society civil states
1:26:26
the most powerful organizations in civil society are the communities
1:26:32
that’s true actually okay let’s go back you know so the society is massively communitarian
1:26:40
the state cannot be communicated this duality how
1:26:45
is it translatable by saying two things first of all
1:26:52
at every moment in public action whether it is elections uh civil service
1:26:59
uh civil status personal status okay every citizen has to choose individually
1:27:06
and explicitly between being a direct citizen or because our society is
1:27:13
what it is to be treated as member of a community for those who are choosing to be members
1:27:20
of copunity equilibria balances etc have to be put in place for the others no this is first
1:27:27
point second point the legit because of that the legitimacy
1:27:32
of the state supersedes the communities it has to take care of the communities as being a
1:27:39
historical heritage only they are not mukawinet nothing right right they are social
1:27:46
situations that are a heritage of the past third
1:27:52
this is a urgent need it is not because i
1:27:57
like it or you like it it’s an urgent need because what we have now is a paralysis a functional paralysis a
1:28:04
communitarian chief cannot deal with an economic collapse
1:28:10
he cannot be right wing or left-wing because if he supports in any country
1:28:15
when you have crisis you have chances the government here you have nothing why because a communitarian chief
1:28:23
cannot allocate losses if he favors i don’t know civil servants against
1:28:28
landowners he will lose the land owners within the community and not gain the
1:28:34
support of the civil servants who are in the other community they are strictly unable so they continue
1:28:41
launching empty slogans such as defending the deposits as if they we
1:28:46
still had banks you know so this paralysis is a threat to every and each and every person
1:28:54
including the chiefs themselves and therefore what we are saying is listen guys
1:29:00
our your system we dislike it but this is not our argument is a threat
1:29:06
even to your own community and to your own person so be responsible
1:29:13
don’t wait from outside an arrangement that you fear [Music]
1:29:18
transfer for a temporary period power to a government that is of no community
1:29:26
that is not a threat for you chief in your own community whether you are shia sunni drews or whatever night or or
1:29:32
whatever okay it’s not the matter like i don’t know we muhammad threatening the jean
1:29:38
blood in the jews not at that level this
1:29:44
transition of power for a limited period of time to a government with exceptional legislative power cannot happen unless
1:29:52
there is a negotiation this negotiation cannot take place if our counterparts who are part of our
1:29:58
country are forced because of the threats and the balance of power
1:30:04
and third unless they know on what terms they are negotiating so there is a
1:30:11
proposal for government we are not going into a process of elections
1:30:16
we are putting on the table a proposition for a transfer of power that is a change in regime simply because of
1:30:23
the need you see these points are absolutely essential and they begin with the text of the constitution of tai
1:30:32
the text of constitution the two most important points are
1:30:37
a pretension to have a state meaning all citizens are equal
1:30:42
second the liberty the freedom of conscience is absolute so on that point
1:30:48
without the senate and the commission and whatever all the dispositions that
1:30:54
apply mithi tarayosh and all that applies only to those who choose and in
1:30:59
that sense every each and every person will have to choose right you see yeah and under the
1:31:06
pressure of fears of bankruptcy of lose of ambitions of massive immorality more
1:31:12
than immigration etc this is the moment where this choice takes all its meaning
1:31:17
this is the central point of all what we are trying to do let’s let’s elaborate further on that i know that your
1:31:24
your journey from trying and at some point you did have some
1:31:30
success in your portfolios in the past as a minister and and trying to navigate the system as
1:31:39
dysfunctional as it is to 2016 realizing that it doesn’t help
1:31:45
to be either affiliated with whether it’s the crowd or any other crowd uh that always
1:31:53
rafael okay
1:31:58
no longer made sense that you were going to go down this path instead and then from 2016
1:32:04
until october 17 we built the party yeah could you could you i’d like to ask you
1:32:09
in terms of the the what what attracts me to this type of party and see what you
1:32:15
what you would have to add i like that it’s i can’t
1:32:21
every conversation i’ve had with any member of this group has done their homework
Citizens in a State
1:32:26
they have proposals that they can that they can lean on they have research that they can show
1:32:33
i think in terms of trying to project a new face for politics this group stands
1:32:38
out also something else which i really enjoy uh you’ve done two things whether this
1:32:44
is by design or not i don’t know the the crowd that’s running for parliament are people that i would like
1:32:51
to be friends with they all dress normally they speak casually uh they’re social media savvy they’re young and
1:32:57
dynamic and the last thing you know about them is their confession it really doesn’t matter when it comes
1:33:04
to delivering the story they’re in the north and the south i see them in bathrooms sometimes
1:33:09
i know that you’re running for parliament and you’re running with friends i know musahuri
1:33:14
i know in matin i know shad and najar in matan so these are people that i know
1:33:20
there’s some names that are familiar as well lucian berger is on your maternal list et cetera et cetera
1:33:26
is it by design that you wanted to have this duality that you’re the you’re the
1:33:32
permit me to say this the older wise man
1:33:37
and then you have the generation behind you this new upcoming
1:33:42
generation that sees lebanon differently or is this just a fluke really that you’re able to do two things
1:33:49
represent what was in the state with a group that is trying to
1:33:54
completely transform it so just the in a way the psychology of this because it’s
1:33:59
fascinating for me there’s no other group like this in lebanon and you found a space for it
1:34:06
okay my view on that
1:34:11
well in actually in 2015 2016
1:34:18
after many attempts to influence the the process that is ongoing in
1:34:25
lebanon as early as the 80s was rafil hariri then
1:34:31
in early 90s through the banking system in 98 99 with salim huss
1:34:38
and george arm in 2004 with lia serba
1:34:44
2017 10 11 with michelle own etc etc
1:34:50
well what i in most of these places the idea was
1:34:59
listen there are bets that you took these bets did not prove feasible
1:35:05
when you are stuck in such a position i know it’s not easy for a political actor
1:35:11
to say i was wrong but if you do not recognize you were wrong
1:35:18
you get stuck it becomes very dangerous so this kind of stubbornness of continuing
1:35:25
in spite of yourself knowing you cannot continue
1:35:30
was the major i’m saying lesson i learned and
1:35:37
in 98 we tried at that time
1:35:42
because of what happened 98 was mainly linked towards what happening in syria okay
1:35:48
assad was getting old and sick etc so there was a kind of fight for the succession and we had the
1:35:54
changes here okay well this is no no tried was selling house and george auram
1:36:00
to say we can restructure the economy of the country the cost is
1:36:08
still bearable all the depth was the 18 billion dollars at that time yeah okay
1:36:15
to make the story short i don’t know if themselves or the syrians or both did not dare as far as that okay in 2004
1:36:25
we we made a very precise restructuring program that was discussed with the imf
1:36:32
with the world bank actually i met your father at that time in washington okay
1:36:38
well the assassinations happened that it was stopped this is which do you remember which year
1:36:43
this was 2004 2004. okay so he must have been at the imf though yes yes
1:36:50
no no he was in in office yeah in washington when we had dinner oh really yes yes
1:36:56
in if you have any photos eight two thousand and two thousand four no remember it was
1:37:02
november or december 2004. okay if you ever find a photo please send it to me i’d like to see this a moment
1:37:09
yeah were you were you agreeing or disagreeing on everything no i’m trying no no no no no no [Laughter]
1:37:16
we can talk about that as much as you like okay so who’s michelle who paid
1:37:23
no i’m kidding it was an official invitation
1:37:29
no sorry okay in 2009 2010 the idea was to disrupt the
1:37:36
communitarian system by and dismantle this band of mafia that is
1:37:42
called the general confederation of labor yes okay yes okay yeah okay at each of
1:37:48
these moments when the the core objective was close
1:37:55
well whether for different calculations whether for awareness increased awareness of the
1:38:02
adversaries or for whatever reason okay
1:38:07
these attempts were stopped so in 2015-16
1:38:13
we knew very well that the system was at the end financially
1:38:19
and i believe that the need for a political organization a
1:38:25
party was absolutely necessary because individual action
1:38:30
has its limits okay so we constituted citizens in a state
1:38:37
as being a tool for one precise situation that we foresee for so
1:38:43
that is the financial and economic collapse okay it’s not something where we have an ideology saying that this is
1:38:49
the end of history we are going to take you to heaven no no it is a tool designed as such now
1:38:58
getting back to the structure okay as a consequence
1:39:04
of the deep impregnation of the society with the model that it has been living under for
1:39:12
30 years that brought for a country for 30 years
1:39:18
the ability to live above its means you know
1:39:24
240 billion dollars of transfers came to lebanon 200 billions were spent
1:39:31
as over consumption this is an amount i have said that many times that is larger
1:39:38
in real terms than all the marshall plan that was designed to reconstruct all
1:39:44
western europe you inject if you inject such an amount of money in a country whether it is
1:39:52
switzerland china or united states you change the society we are not a particular case we are an extreme case
1:39:59
so what was the reaction to this attempt
1:40:05
to structure a party not a group we are a real party where people declare their revenue their debts
1:40:12
their wealth they contribute as a proportional system etc okay so what is
1:40:20
the result and it’s a very committed group of people yes yes i got to know muhammad
1:40:25
before he officially joined the group he’s been on the podcast a few times okay so there’s a lot of people i actually turned to to learn from in this
1:40:32
group so the point you’re raising about the age structure well it is a matter of fact that as a result
1:40:40
we are composed of many two large two groups one small and one
1:40:48
large the small group is people who had various
1:40:53
but direct political experience by one of them maybe we are 10 or 15 in that case
1:41:01
the rest are not very young people we do not have many in the early 20s okay
1:41:07
it’s rather people who are in the 30s okay but there is a gap there is a
1:41:14
in the middle you know people in the 40s and the 50s are very few yeah why
1:41:21
my explanation might be true or not is that
1:41:28
among those who have lived the past 30 or 40 years
1:41:34
well many are i would say
1:41:39
if you allow me are ashamed of what they did so they are retired
1:41:44
fairly young but i don’t know in the 40s and 50s but they’ve already they have been yeah
1:41:51
they have played in the casino and once you you see the world as a casino you accept
1:42:00
losing you know you you do not react you know it’s interesting to see when the banks were
1:42:06
already bankrupt and came asking people to reinvest with bonuses promised etc
1:42:13
full casino type okay some people reacted to that you know i remember
1:42:18
explaining to to people who are in the profession of banking it said listen
1:42:24
it is already bankrupt you say yes you’re right but don’t you think that it will still last few months
1:42:30
meaning let me go again to the casino where i win at every play you see
1:42:35
this logic of casino is deeply rooted in the society and this is in my view what
1:42:42
explains that people admit the loss you know if you if you see the world at the casino where you have won
1:42:49
so many times well you admit losing it is not the case
1:42:54
for the younger okay who are you the very young
1:43:00
are in my view and this is very sad are making their luggage to
1:43:06
yeah to immigrate yeah those who are in the 30s are tempted by immigration but
1:43:12
they have still something built here so these are those who fight interesting you see so you have different age
1:43:18
categories that are linked to the type of experience that they have been confronted to right
1:43:24
i like that so in a way it’s building for the future because in a sense the the the crowd
1:43:30
that i meet which is mostly i hope i remember i get this right they’re mostly in their mid late
1:43:35
twenties and and thirties the 30s that they have an appetite which
1:43:40
i don’t exist that i don’t see in my age group anymore so i appreciate the way you you’re framing this
1:43:45
i also appreciate something else you gave time to me to let me ask you
1:43:51
one of the most sensitive questions i could ask and it’s something that destroyed you
1:43:57
know this it destroyed my my life of course it prevented you from having dinner with him again
1:44:04
and it’s still in our lives today and i would much rather see a group that uh has this
1:44:12
capability within it go the extra mile and offer a way out
1:44:17
for this problem beyond beyond just saying that we need a transition because i think
1:44:23
there’s something and i mean this very carefully but i mean it it doesn’t seem like it’s the focal
1:44:30
point of the story but i think it is the focal point of the story and these this is a path i’ve experienced with other
1:44:37
members as well economics easier to talk about
1:44:42
politics very straightforward hezbollah it’s not so straightforward
1:44:49
you found a way today to explain it in a way that was both precise on your terms and and and very
1:44:55
deep so i think it’s the first time i’ve heard you say it this way it means a lot to me please that’s it
1:45:02
okay and i want to uh i want to wish you best of success in this stretch i know how difficult it is i’ve met so many
1:45:09
people running and you see most of them on the highway when you look up yep
1:45:17
i happen to know your father not in many occasions i mentioned the
1:45:23
meeting we had in washington in the end of 2004
1:45:28
then when he came to the ministry of finance he was not surprised by that but
1:45:34
independently apart from the dominant classification of 8 and 14 et
1:45:42
cetera several deep clarifications on the process of
1:45:48
public finance were immediately without hesitation done by your father
1:45:55
this might look as being a simple action it is not because this
1:46:00
shows at the level of public responsibility
1:46:06
something that is unfortunately not very common in this country that is the autonomy of decision you see
1:46:16
this was not in the mood and i must say that i had
1:46:21
the same experiment but not successful with uh
1:46:26
with others ministers of finance or others you know it happened that i
1:46:33
i knew rafariri very closely for a long period of time and i had a
1:46:38
major disagreement with him yeah about uh
1:46:44
entering as a private investor in solidarity while the arrangement was the syrians as a saudi with the beginning this is different story okay
1:46:51
well but in spite of that knowing most of these persons who have become very important well okay
1:47:00
on points that had significant effect on mainly the
1:47:06
management of public finance okay
1:47:11
almost none of them dared uh getting out of the path that had been
1:47:17
put in place to make stories simple by fourth senior um
1:47:22
your father without hesitation it’s losses you know
1:47:30
what saying that you asked me we are now working to constitute a
1:47:36
national civil assembly that disputes all the existing system on this legitimacy whether the parliament the
1:47:42
government etc this is very sad to say but
1:47:48
people who seem the most aware of the responsibility and have
1:47:56
significant courage to go into it are not only in their eighties but in their nineties you know
1:48:03
no it’s very sad believe me no
1:48:08
people who have been through all the changes the painful
1:48:13
changes the loss of hopes
1:48:19
and who they’re considering all that as being
1:48:26
not a state of the world but changes our older people elder people elderly
1:48:32
people because most of the population now apart from the poor
1:48:37
syrians that nobody looks at as if they did not exist they were transparent they are becoming the majority of the
1:48:43
population with the immigration now okay most of the population in lebanon
1:48:48
now sorry to finish by that have lived in something that they knew was a casino
1:48:56
they were not unaware of that you know when when it became
1:49:01
almost a kind of obligation to have a bengali or filipino made at home you
1:49:07
know when you look at the process of social promotion as they call it
1:49:14
how what was their their ownership what was their way of living themselves
1:49:21
men women etc maybe the children do not know but they know
1:49:27
this jump was not for them something natural it was winning at the casino and
1:49:34
this and the logic of casino is has been rooted very deeply
1:49:40
and without that i could not understand the passivity of people against all the
1:49:46
losses that they have incurred i’m sorry to finish by a sad description but no but
1:49:51
that’s uh i think it’s an appropriate way to end this conversation because even though you need a bit of optimism
1:49:58
to pursue politics i think it it comes with the territory and you need
1:50:04
not just ambition but you need a lot of patience when you’re campaigning and it’s just weeks left
1:50:11
i think the reality is this country is in a very very very difficult stage you eloquently i think those last words
1:50:19
are there’s not much more that can be said you’re absolutely right
1:50:24
i think my children may see a lebanon that’s recovering slowly
1:50:30
and i would like to see the last years of my life seeing the transition for a better country um
1:50:38
i’ll add that i appreciate any group that is challenging
1:50:44
old inertia and gravity and citizens in a state is that one group
1:50:50
that i think is really trying and you’re heading it i know it’s it’s a group that will exist
1:50:56
past your prime i’ve had people even say this to me that it’s not about you it’s about the group and it’s about that’s
1:51:02
about what you believe in um so i look forward to meeting other members i look forward to doing this again in
1:51:09
the future and uh i don’t know what to say other than thank you for your this is a very rewarding uh exchange for me thank you
1:51:16
thank you sherbet thank you it’s a responsibility you’re adding on it thank you my pleasure and let’s do the
1:51:21
handshake to officiate the end here we go okay
1:51:32
[Music]
1:51:37
[Applause] [Music]
1:51:54
you
All
From The Beirut Banyan